S1:E5 - Bipolar and ADHD

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You can find Hailey Rose on Instagram @mind.over.mood and on TikTok @mind.over.mood.

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ANNA: Welcome to Courage to Heal, a podcast where we explore the battles we wage within ourselves. I am your host, Anna Khandrueva, a psychotherapist and a mental health advocate. This is season one, episode five - Bipolar and ADHD.

Hello, everyone. I hope you are ready to learn more about bipolar and attention deficit and hyperactivity disorder or ADHD.

Why am I looking at this topic? Because as many as one in six people with bipolar also have ADHD. It's a common combination. Kids with ADHD are ten times more likely to develop bipolar later in life and having ADHD is associated with an earlier onset of bipolar by as many as almost four years.

ADHD affects neurodevelopment and people with ADHD are considered neurodivergent. This term can be used to describe an individual whose brain functions differently to what we consider, “normal” or neurotypical. This includes people with autism, ADHD, Tourette's, dyslexia, and a range of other conditions. Neurodiversity suggests that various neurological conditions are the effect of normal changes and variations in the human genome and should be recognized as a social category similar to differences in ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, or ability. The combination of bipolar and ADHD really makes someone quite different from what we consider neurotypical.

Without further ado, let's listen to someone with a lived experience.

ANNA: Today, I'm here with Haley Rose, a mental health advocate who lives with bipolar type one and ADHD, and who works hard at making mental illness a little less scary. Hailey graciously agreed to let us into her inner space to learn more about what it's like to have a truly different brain. Thank you for being here with me, Hailey.

HAILEY: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. 

ANNA: And, Hailey, maybe you could start by telling my listeners a little bit about yourself. My name is Hayley. I like she

HAILEY: said, I'm a mental health advocate. I live with bipolar type one. Highly features as well as ADHD and CPTSD, which I think is actually pretty common with people with those diagnoses and for good reason. Honestly, don't know too much about what to say about myself other than I, you know, I love arts. I love reaching out to people. I love my little dog. I love I I'm trying to fall in love with life again. I'm doing my best. You know what I mean? Because I think you have to in order to want to keep doing it. Because when you're like this, it's not fun and it doesn't always feel worth it. So, I'm trying I'm trying to just love life again, I guess.

ANNA: Right. Well, you mentioned having bipolar with psychotic features and ADHD, of course. So, tell me a little bit more about that. When did you actually find out? Then what was that like for you?

HAILEY: If you look in my actual mental health, like, my diagnosis with, like, doctors and everything, it would be schizoaffective because of how the psychosis has gone outside of mood episodes and stuff because that's the main difference is if you have that as a standalone symptom. And it's really strange because on the one hand, like, when I've gotten my diagnosis for any of these things? It has been when something has peaked to a point where I can't handle it anymore. And I end up going in to get some help. But then what I realize, especially when I start taking medication for these things, is how much of my brain actually was these things. You know what I mean? Like and basically my whole life, I had either a very minor or subclinical, like, version of a lot of the psychotic features I have now. 

But they just kind of fully bloomed when the pandemic showed up. You know what I mean? And then with the bipolar, I looked back after that diagnosis, after I started really understanding especially after my first full blown manic episode. I'm looking back. And then all of a sudden, I could see all of these patterns. And everything made a lot of sense because I could tell when I was depressed, but I couldn't tell when I was hypomanic. And I was getting hypomanic up until about maybe three years ago. And I was like, oh, okay. That makes sense. And looking back on stuff like that. And so on the one hand, it was really freaky, but then on the other hand, it made things make a lot of sense. You know what I mean?

It was also weird because now I had this thing I had to hide from a lot of people. Like, about me, but it's weird because it wasn't like I had just attained this. It's like this was me that I had to now tied the actual description of from other people because I looked around and people were, like, freaking out, oh, you know, people looked like polar months or they're violent or they're this or they're that. And I'm just like, I mean, we, you know, where we can be aggressive.

ANNA: Right? And, you know, I should tell my listeners too in case they aren't aware. I have bipolar type one and ADHD too. So, I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. And I personally noticed that people tend to have a more negative perception of the bipolar diagnosis than they do of the ADHD diagnosis. And ADHD, a lot of people kind of make light of.

HAILEY: Yes. And I think also too because you associate ADHD with children. And a lot of people assume that it's only children and it's not. But no. No. The ADHD is the other way around, like, people make light of it. People think that it's less of an issue than it is. People think it's not debilitating when it is, or that it's an excuse. They don't understand it. They think everybody has it when they don't, you know, they and I think the thing that bothers me the most with ADHD is that people know full well that this is not something you can control and yet they still talk to you and treat you as though it's a character flaw. Or they'll still ask you to stupid questions, like, why would you do that? Didn't you remember? No. Obviously, I didn't remember. That's why I'm asking you.

Like, there's these just micro like, and I hate using words like this, but really it's like a little micro drop everywhere you go. Somebody asks you stupid questions. Somebody makes light of it, somebody uses it to describe their dog. You see there's a pile of clothes that you honestly cannot bring yourself to do anything with did every day these little things saying, your failure, but like you have to try and tune it out because it's not true. But it's hard sometimes especially when you're a kid. You know.

ANNA: Right. And did you know you had ADHD as a kid or was it more of an adult-onset type thing?

HAILEY: I knew well, I knew yeah. We knew from when I was about four or five, it was painfully obvious. Like, they had to shut down SeaWorld because I went missing, and I wandered off. And I was in, like, the top of some pirate ship somewhere. And, like, playing with stuff and people were screaming my name and I didn't even know.

Like, it's It was obvious from early on. However, and I actually just made a post about this. It was in the nineties. And knowing that word didn't really stay very much for a lot of people. They knew they knew maybe, you know, oh, it makes them hard to sit still. Oh, it makes it hard for them to focus, oh, they might be forgetful. And that was kind of the extent of it. But even then, there was most people that just didn't believe it was a thing. You know, or just didn't know everything else that entailed. My mother even would sit there and she'd be like, you must not like any of your things.

You must hate all of your stuff because you won't pick it up and blah blah. And it's like and I couldn't explain why not. That's not the case, but I just don't, like, you know what I mean? And it's difficult because even now, it's not something that's in people's control and yet we treat people as if it was to the point where we don't even notice that people are really being rude to us anymore because it's just a part of life for us. And I think that that's not good. And I don't and I'm actually kind of putting my foot down about that. That's something that needs to change.

ANNA: I love hearing you say that I do love your Instagram account where you talk a lot about these issues, about how serious ADHD really is. And about you do say that, you know, we're not monsters, we're just people, and that I do notice a lot of people out there think bipolar, people with bipolar are aggressive, dangerous, violent, monsters. There's a lot of stigma out there regarding that particular disorder.

HAILEY: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I'm luckily, I don't have to deal with people very often. So the amount of times where I've actually faced stigmatized behavior towards me for it have only been a few. But the fact that I've experienced it with how little I go out does a lot.

ANNA: Right. Absolutely. And, Hailey, I wonder what are some of the biggest challenges you faced because of this combination of bipolar and ADHD?

HAILEY: They kind of feel other in a weird way, you know, because, like, they both encourage each other to not sleep. To, you know, do other things. They feed into each other's tendencies towards depression. You know, could you get the rejection sensitivity and rejection dysphoria when you have ADHD and you already, you know, you don't need a reason at all to be depressed when your bipolar let alone having a reason. You know, you can get really excited about a project with ADHD and therefore end up spending all night on it, but then also you were about to get manic, so now you're staying up.

The ADHD gets enhanced when you’re manic and, you know, you get more impulsive or you get more obsessive or you get more, like, just everything wrong with your ADHD goes through the roof, at least for me. You know? And they both have brain fog that goes along with them. They both have a tendency to make you wanna use substances. And, you know, they can interrupt your focus and everything like that. And so, yeah, they just they really feed into each other. And you'd think, oh, well, it's just that one symptom, but it really feels like you get hit twice. You know? Like, there's more than just the one thing going on.

ANNA: Absolutely, I couldn't agree more with you. And that really feeds into the question I was going to ask is, do you believe that bipolar makes ADHD symptoms worse and vice versa too?

HAILEY: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because I think there's different reasons. That each has the behaviors going on that they have. Like neurologically, I think, you know, in some cases, it's the same thing. But in other cases, there's literally just different reasons that these symptoms are occurring. So, you literally get hit with both versions of that happening in your brain, and it just it exacerbates everything, really, really bad. Right. Yeah. Because, I mean, people get that with ADHD, those symptoms are there more or less to stay. Whether or not you take medication, it could be much easier with medication, but they're still there.

And with bipolar, it's possible to not be man equipped to not be depressed. There is you know, there are those periods of stability, however short they might be for people. And that, I guess, when you're stable is when ADHD symptoms really come out, and you realize that, oh, even though I'm not having a bipolar episode, I still very much have this impairment. Oh, yeah. Well, and that's actually another thing is it's emotional regulation with ADHD. And, oh my god, this is also a severe mood disorder now on top of it.

And I feel like they just because bipolar mood episodes, and then I don't know if it's the same for you, but for me, there's also just bipolar moods. That can happen any day for any reason, for any period of time. And it's not an episode, but it is this emotional instability, like, just on a day-to-day basis. You know what I mean? And I think the ADHD also causes that, but I noticed it got a lot worse when the bipolar had its onset. You know what I mean? And so those feed into each the ability to emotionally regulate is just not good, you know, and that's taken a lot of work.

ANNA: For sure, I can definitely relate to that. There is that rapid cycling that can happen with bipolar where like you said, you're not necessarily going from a significant episode into another significant episode, but there's definitely emotional dysregulation happening.

HAILEY: Yeah. Or like your ability to control your anger, to control your site manner to control, you know, just those kinds of things, just you could be totally fine. I've been totally stable and all of a sudden out of nowhere.

ANNA: Right. And you mentioned bipolar anger, that's definitely a thing that happens with us. It's really hard to control sometimes. And then with ADHD, you get that impulsivity. Just like you do with bipolar. And that combination can be particularly explosive. I wonder if you can relate to that.

HAILEY: Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. And absolutely. And then also, like I said, with the CPTSD kinda sets triggers for it that are hard to understand. You know what I mean? Like and so those are like little trigger, like, responses for it as well, but it's interesting because when you say when you say anger, when you say bipolar anger, like people think of neurotypical anger. Right? Somebody's just really mad and maybe they put their fist on the table or they're just really upset or whatever. And why it's like, no. No. No. No. This is just flat out rage. This is, like, roid rage, at least for me, like, roid-rage style rage.

Like, for me, I was, like, psychopathic style rage, where I don't even care if I live anymore. I just get this urge to just more, like, launch at something or whatever. And it's just this it's like this And I really believe it burns all the adrenaline in my body. You know? Because afterward, like, I will collapse and be unable to move at all for hours afterward. And I'll cry blah blah blah, but it's like this big like, fire, like I'm a dragon or something. And this fire inside me just keeps getting hotter and hotter and hotter. And I gotta do something. Like and so I've always channeled myself to start beating up a pillow or, like, kick something that won't break or, like, scream and just, like, like, punch something that's not a person or someone else's property.

You know, and to get it out because that's the only way that I can get it out of if I actually spend that energy doing something because all the adrenaline is built up now. And then and then, you know, I can kind of control it. But also too, even when I luckily, that doesn't happen very often for me. That only happens like, maybe I don't know. Like, maybe once a year or whatever, like, that big, big, like, you know, bordering on a style rage. Like, you just sit at, like, big time. And it's never over anything worth it, by the way. But then when I just get kind of angry, and I think this is something with bipolar because this has gotten worse since the onset of it. I have a really hard time letting go of that anger, like, in my head or physically or whatever. Like, it's difficult It's days in me, and I can't like, I'm just I try to get it out.

I try to just let it go and it won't go away. Like, it won't leave me alone. And I'm you know, like, I try to work on that too. And then I notice I think with ADHD, there's anger, but I think a better word for that. Would probably be meltdowns. You know, like when you are overwhelmed or when you are so frustrated because something won't work or when you, you know, have been overstimulated or under-stimulated way too long or whatever, and you just have this huge just kind of meltdown kind of thing. Like, it's usually a frustration related. And so but those definitely yeah. Those will definitely feed into each other. And it's interesting because you mentioned impulsivity, like, controlling the impulsive urges that I have when I'm really enraged is probably one of the most difficult things I have ever done. But I had to do it because I didn't wanna go to jail. Right?

Like, and I'm dead serious. You know? Like and but I never considered myself a super impulsive person. You know, because I was always just like, oh, well, I don't go out and spend tons of money. Oh, well, I don't, you know, just make vacation plans or I don't just get up and go somewhere a lot of the time. I do sometimes. But then I thought of a different version of impulsive, which is the ability to say no to excess. And that I have a huge problem with. I have a really hard time controlling the amounts of whatever I my brain is enjoying consents. I have a problem putting down video game controllers.

I have a problem putting down, you know, a pipe. I have a hard time, you know, putting down, like, you know, anything like that. Like, I have a very difficult time with too much. My brain just like, oh, there's no such thing as too much. I use I have had binge eating problems. 
I've also you know, had had restricted eating disorders, but I've had binge eating because I just can't I'm depressed, and I just can't stop like this thing. You know what I mean? And for that reason, I stopped drinking quite early on because I could feel that I started wanting alcohol every time I ate. And I'm like, oh, that's not good. And so, and that's one of several reasons why I stopped doing that at least, and there's a lot of alcoholism in my family as it turns out. 
So, it's probably a good move. For once that I've made, one if not a huge amount.

ANNA: Once again, I can relate so much to that to that impulsivity, that off switch just isn't there. Whether it's with eating, I've had to significantly cut down my alcohol intake for the reasons you just described is once you start, it's just really hard to finish. You don't wanna stop. You wanna keep going.

HAILEY: Yeah. Because you wanna keep feeding whatever that thing is because it's like you still rarely find something that you enjoy. I feel like with brains, like, hours that when like, that you truly are having fun with. So, like, when you do. Your brain's just like, no. No. No. No. 
I want more and more, more. Like, that's why it's hard with the mania. You know what I mean?

ANNA: Oh, absolutely. It and what you mentioned with this, you know, excess, there's also… with ADHD, there's hyperfocus. Yes. I don't know when I have to put stuff down. Yeah, I can't put stuff down. And you also see the mania, hypomania where we start all of these projects, and we have all of these ideas. And the combination can be, I mean, it's difficult to deal with when you have all of these ideas you want to focus on each one of them and you might go into this rabbit hole of just doing and doing and doing to what extent you might not get good results.

HAILEY: Or you end up doing nothing because you want to do all of them and you can't decide which one you're gonna do right now so you freeze and then you freeze for, like, the whole day or half the day or however much time you are physically allowed to freeze for. And then you and then you're, like, oh my god. I did it again. I wasted another day. Oh, god. You get all upset and everything.

ANNA: Yeah. Yeah. It's that, you know, that in ADHD as people think, oh, people with ADHD are always hyperactive, running around. And like you mentioned, sometimes you do freeze up. For a day, for a week, you're unable to finish your chores, you're unable to do stuff that you really need to do, like, answer work emails and what, you know, whatnot. And people don't see that in ADHD, the ones who are neurotypical, they don't understand that that's just as likely as being hyperactive and all over the place.

HAILEY: Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. ADHD is either one hundred percent on or one hundred percent off. And it can switch really quickly, like, you know, you can have those moments where you literally just spent, like, five minutes just totally gone. Like, you you know you're not no one's gonna do anything. You can't do anything. And then suddenly, you're like, boom. And then you're back on again, and then your brain starts doing all of its little noisy stuff again, you know.

ANNA: And, Haley, you mentioned being on medication. Do you take medication for both bipolar and ADHD?

HAILEY: Yes. I mean, I'm back on my meds for bipolar, but, yes, I'm supposed to be taking them. Yeah.

ANNA: Right. Well, I'm in the same situation too. I take medication for both. And I was just looking at some stats right before a interview. And one study said that if you just take stimulants for ADHD, without taking mood stabilizer for bipolar, you are seven times more likely to have hypomania or mania being set off by those stimulants.

HAILEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that that had happened to me, you know, when I wasn't depressed before I knew I had bipolar disorder. And it's, you know, I would be on and off medication and I had gotten hypomanic without being on the medication and I had stayed not manic while on the medication for a long period of time, you know, but it's funny. I did a real, a little while ago that was this sound bite and it said, you know, and basically the message was one of you, and I'm not gonna name any names, makes me feel worse when I take them. And then the ADHD med goes, is it me? And because, no. And the bipolar medicine goes, isn't me? And I was gonna, like, it's not the ADHD, man.

Because it was true because I, like, I was on a really high dose for a long time of the mood stabilizers and they're making me completely numb. And my psychiatrist wouldn't listen to me, and I kept trying to tell him that. And I finally, like, I mean, I got out of my routine when my husband left for a work trip, and I was home alone for a week. With the dog who was a three four month old puppy, and all over the place and barking and whiny and chewing and peeing and upset and everything especially because, you know, daddy was gone and so he's flipping out and, like, I couldn't handle it and I forgot to eat and I forgot to sleep and I forgot to take my meds and then lo and behold.

I was in hypomania, but I was in denial about it for several weeks because I was still sleeping a bit, you know. And I thought, oh, if I was manic, I wouldn't sleep at but it's like, I don't know about that, you know. And yeah. And then, of course, I was feeling better because I was hypomanic. So I started kinda, oops, didn't take my meds. Oops, didn't take my med. Oops, didn't take my meds. And I take them maybe, like, once a week or twice a week, you know. And it was great. And I don't I still can't think of a good reason why I started going back on my meds except the fact that I was determined to find out if I could be both medicated and lucid and feeling like myself.

ANNA: Yeah. Yeah. That feeling like yourself with meds, I mean, I guess there's always questioning of, is this the real me or is this something that medication is making me into? So, I wonder if you, with being more stable, with not experiencing hypomania as much, do you think that there are disadvantages to that? To not be manic?

HAILEY: Well, I mean, yes in a sense, because it seems to me. It feels to me because I noticed when I'm not when I am manic or when I'm hypomanic anyway, I feel like the version of me. But I felt like before I started taking medication at all. And when I'm on when I was on the high dose of medication, I felt quite numb. You know? So, I'm thinking, like, it doesn't just turn off that one heart of your brain that's going like, they it doesn't it's not like it's a mania seeking missile that goes into your brain. And targets just that. Like, it has to put a blanket over kinda everything. You know? And by the way, I'm not discouraging people from taking medication because it can save your brain.

You can actually get brain damaged. If you get manic too much, don't do it. Just take your meds. But, like, you know, it has to put a blanket over everything. And so if that blanket is really thick, then that's all of your brain that's covered So without the meds, my whole brain woke up completely as well as that part of it, that's bipolar. And that part isn't supposed to be awake isn't shouldn't be allowed to be awake in that degree because you can, you know, obviously, you can hurt yourself, I guess. But like, that's what it was. So the advantage of being manic, at least hypomanic, is that you get to have all of your brain back for a while, which is just the saddest thing to me. And you know, like, also, you know, obviously, your brain is going a million miles a minute.

It may be completely delusional, good feelings, but considering how much of the time, both ADHD and bipolar disorder make you feel bad or numb or whatever. I would rather be bipolar than just be depressed. I would rather have bipolar disorder than major depressive disorder. Why? Because even though this is a very dangerous state to be in, at least with mania, I get something different, something where I don't have to feel depressed.

You know, I can feel like, wow. Actually, life is great for, like, five minutes. You know? But I I'm trying right now to see if I can just find a way to stay on a lower dose of bipolar medication and find a spot where I still feel like me, but, you know, stable because there has there has to be. There has to be something. There has to be something because this is this is unfair. You can't ask this to people. You know, like you can't ask people to just always stay turned off mentally or else, you know, they're bad or something or whatever. But then, you know, obviously, being manic is not healthy, there has to be something. There has to be something better. 
And, you know, I just I have to see for everybody because we shouldn't be having to live like this.

ANNA: I agree with that. It's like you said, it's putting a blanket over the whole fire. And you want there to be some kind of flame. You don't want your house to be on fire, but you also want to have a candle to keep you warm and to make you see in the dark. And that's what it can feel like with medication, that's what it can feel like sometimes as sad as it is because you're right, absolutely people should not go off their meds. They should try to stay stable, but something is taken away from you by taking those meds.

HAILEY: Yeah. And that's what I said. It's like, you need to do your best to stay stable. But if you are the loved one of someone who has bipolar disorder or who's you know, having trouble staying med compliant, like, you know, just give them a little bit of a break Like, this is a big ask for them. It's been their whole lives turned, like, with their brain turned. Would you wanna do that? You know? Like and I get that, you know, there's dangers in in not taking medication for a lot of people, but just try to be patient with them getting back on it. You know, like because it's hard and not fun.

ANNA: Because I mean, by saying that really all you're asking for is some understanding and some compassion. It's not that we're saying, no, just let us run wild and not take our mess. Yeah.

HAILEY: No. Absolutely not. It's good to help us be responsible. But if they've caved to it, like one, their disorder is telling them not to take their meds. So just have some patients while you guys try to get them stable again. And two, like, it's a numbing feeling. And I, you know, like, that's why I say there's gotta be something better because it's the same thing when I was taking antipsychotics. Was I clear or headed? Yes. Did I enjoy where I was mentally?

No. It's like it's like, you know, oh, well, your antipsychotics are gonna turn the lights on in in the room for you so that, you know, you can see better. But the lights were these big ugly suicide lights above me brighter than Walmart. You know? And it's like, And they all flipped on and suddenly everything that was possibly magical about my reality was just gone. And it was just this big empty warehouse that I was standing in. And I was like, oh, I don't like this. It's like everything that was anywhere near interesting and my brain just melted away and it was just and I asked my mom and she's all like, well, welcome to where the best of us live. And I'm like, I don't wanna be here by, like, in the amount of psychosis that I have. Because one thing I learned when you do when you're deciding on medications to take in what you're gonna do and everything.

And you have to ask yourself what symptoms do I… how much medication am I willing to take to get rid of these symptoms? And what symptoms am I willing to deal with in order to not have to take super huge amounts of medication? Basically, what symptoms can I live with and what symptoms must go? You know, and honestly, this psychosis, while there were some embarrassing moments while it contributes to brain fog. And while it, you know, can make me feel paranoid at times when it is not peeking, and it is not in its own full episode. I can handle I would rather deal with that. Then deal with not, then deal with the feeling of being on antipsychotics. You know what I mean? Because my hallucinations are not scary. If they happen, they're just mostly, like, patterns and, like, things moving unnaturally and stuff like that. 
They're not you know, like anything, you know, like scary usually.

ANNA: You mentioned paranoia and way earlier on, you mentioned having subclinical psychotic symptoms, which, you know, are milder. And like for me personally, it's when I do have a delusion, like, when I talked about it with my husband on an interview is I had a delusion that a man was living in our attic. And I knew that to not be true while at the same time knowing it to be true, which is really hard to explain. So, I knew it was a delusion, but I didn't know how to cope with that.

HAILEY: Yeah. No. I had a lot of delusions too. Delusions and magical thinking were probably my biggest symptoms for a very long time. And I noticed that it was one of those things where I knew it was true, but I probably shouldn't tell other people because they won't believe me. 
And that that was my cue that that was not that that was probably a delusion. Like, later on when I realized it felt like, oh, what do you mean? Like, I don't do magical thinking. And then, like, the next time I got in the car, like, I realized I was doing that thing that I always did where I telepathically turned the light green. Because I always believed I could turn a light green.
I always believed that I could make elevators stop. At whatever floor they were on or I could keep the doors open or closed. And when it didn't work, it was because I wasn't concentrating hard enough. Right? Like and it seems so I'm not a stupid person.

Right? But, like, you know, it's there's these things, you know. That you believe, like, I believe that I could read people's thoughts. Clearly, you know, and that kind of thing. I had conversations with people who weren't there. And I they were, like, internal voices, but I could feel their presence wherever they were in perspective to me. Like and so those things have been going on for quite a while. And then I finally realized, especially when I took antipsychotics, all of a sudden, all my friends went away. And everything I believed I could do went away. And now I know better, like, in terms of, like, the magical thinking and stuff, but it still can be kind of difficult. And there's other there's other stuff too, but, like, that was just like a couple examples of stuff I had going on for a really long time.

ANNA: Well, we talked a whole lot about all of the not so positive things about having bipolar, having ADHD, do you believe that there are any strengths or positives about having either one of these conditions?

HAILEY: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I think I think that the fluctuations in energy are really big because it's easy to focus on when we don't have any energy. But all the time that you don't have energy usually will get made of later in times where you do have a lot of energy and a lot of excitement and a lot of passion with both of them where you get real excited and you wanna do a lot of stuff. And suddenly, you're brighter than the sun. And that's really cool.

I think that ADHD forces you to be a strong thinker because you have a much thicker kind of mud that you have to wait through? Like, all of a sudden, if all your ADHD was gone, like, you'd be a powerhouse, you would, you know, be Leonardo Da Vinci? You know what I mean? Like and then with bipolar, like, the passion that you have, the fire that you have, the capability that you have even physically is just outrageous. And like, it inspires a lot at least for me, it inspires a lot of creativity, and it shows me that I can get through really difficult things that a lot of people can't get through. And I can feel things that a lot of people can't. And whether those things are good or bad, it still interesting to know that this is something that I have the capability of doing that a lot of people don't. And I have seen things in my life that no one else who doesn't have this will see or experience or know. And it's a blessing and a curse.

Like, you know, because on the one hand, it's like, you know, oh, I wish I'd never experienced mania because now when I don't have it, it doesn't feel as shiny as, you know, it could because you compare it badly. But on the other hand, oh my god. I have experienced beyond human highs. I have experienced terror when I'm depressed. Like, and sadness that I I'm so grateful to not feel when I wake up every day. And it's not that, you know, And yeah, and I think that those things those things are interesting and makes it for a very unique experience with a pretty powerful brain. Maybe it doesn't function like we want it to, but it's powerful and you can't deny that.

ANNA: Very well said, very well said, that creativity the passion, like you said, just knowing how bad it can get, and then being able to not feel as bad and being grateful for that is definitely huge. And so, I wonder, other than medication, what would you say has been the biggest help to you with either bipolar or ADHD or both?

HAILEY: I mean, obviously, there's coping skills both for acute symptoms and for daily managed of both that are very, very hopeful kind of in, like, drip feeds, you know. But I think probably the biggest thing of all has been developing a healthy sense of stoicism and detachment in a weird way, you know? Because if you get to if you put too much If you put too much, like, meaning an emphasis on you know, oh god. This is my one life to live. This is my only chance. Every minute is a minute. I'm wasting a blah blah blah. You're not gonna make it past fifty. You're just not.

You know, like, with this kind of thing, like, being scared and apprehensive that you're gonna have another depression and mania. Oh, god. I will, whoa. Well, well, you don't have to be scared that you, you know, about it because it's gonna come. Whether you want it to or not, you're gonna get manic again. Gonna get depressed again. You're gonna wake up tomorrow and still not be able to think of all the things that you need to think about. Because you have ADHD. You're still gonna lose stuff tomorrow. You're still gonna sit there and get frustrated next week. 
You're still gonna sit there and forget things that you needed to remember, and that's just gonna be life and you can have two options.

And you're gonna keep having days that are just not the day. And when those happen, there is nothing to do about it. So the only thing that you can do is accept that this is your cross to bear. Everybody's got one. This is yours. At least one of them. I don't you know, maybe you've got others as well. And carry it because what are you gonna do? What else are you gonna do? 
You know what I mean? And just kinda be like, alright. And if you can learn to find happiness, to find things to appreciate, to find just a sense of being able to kind of let go of it and just kind of be like, you know what? I'm just gonna do my I'm gonna take it a moment at a time, an hour at a time, a day at a time. I'm gonna do my best, and I've decided that my best is enough And I'm not gonna hate myself when stuff's not working out, and I'm not gonna sit and feel sorry for myself more than humanly possible.

You know, like, and just kind of keep going, you know, like, this is just a part of your life. Everybody's got something in their life that's dreadful. You know, it's like my grandmother was in a wheelchair her whole life. And eventually, she just had to be like, yeah, tomorrow morning, I'm gonna get off. I'm gonna get in my wheelchair, and I'm gonna go into the bathroom. And if someone helped me go to the bathroom, it just is what it is. Like, you know, like, you can be upset about it, or you can choose to try and have a life. Despite it. You know what I mean? I'm having that kind of I'm not emotionally upset by this fact anymore thing. It's just been incredibly freeing. You know?

ANNA:  Yeah. So this is what you're talking about. What I'm hearing is there's radical acceptance and then there's self-compassion. To recognize that you're gonna have days when your best is very different from other days.

HAILEY:. Yeah, they go together. Absolutely. And that radical acceptance also helps you to change the things that you can't change because you're not afraid to examine yourself and examine you. You know, your situation for what it is and actually ask the question, can I make this better? Because if I can, I wanna do it? But yeah, you know, and to have that radical acceptance of yourself in your situation is a way to have compassion for yourself. Because otherwise you're just sitting there, punishing yourself, hating life, being bitter, all these things, the best thing you can do for yourself. It's to let go. It's to just accept the, you know, like, you know, accept yourself on the days where it's hard to accept your situation on the days where you're not happy with it.

And say, alright, I'm gonna go into a self-care mode when I need it the most. And on these days where I could have done better, I'm gonna go ahead and try to fix that. And because you have radically accepted yourself, it doesn't come off as judgment of yourself because you're not judging yourself. You're just saying very Honestly, okay. Well, this could have gone better. I'm gonna do this next time. Nothing to feel bad about. I don't think I'm wrong for doing things. I don't think that I'm bad for doing things.

I just think that certain things are more helpful than other things. And certain, you know, days I get what I'm trying to do done better than others. And on those days. It's okay to say, hey, maybe we can do something else tomorrow. You know, that's all you can do. Because if you're gonna judge most people who don't have these issues, can judge themselves based on their behavior and their choices. But the fact is when you have a neurological disorder that affect your ability to control your behavior and choices, you can't do that. And it's not to say, you know, you're suddenly perfect and free of all, you know, badness, no question on. You're wicked. I'm wicked. Everybody's wicked. It's okay.

As what the whole shadow concept is. You know, the parts of you don't want people to know about, obviously. But the only way to get Even then, the only way to get through those things, the only way to change those things or integrate them in a way that's not toxic. It's to still radically accept yourself and your situation. You know, like, hey, your tools that you're working with are not good tools. Let's make better tools so that you can make better choices so that you can live a better life. And a bet be a better person to the people around you.

ANNA: Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned tools coping skills, all of that. Have you ever been to therapy? And did you find that to be helpful at all?

HAILEY: I've been to therapy on and off, like, you know, multiple times probably since I was seven. Because it was, like, court ordered therapy at that point. But yeah. No. Oh, I found I found therapy to be very helpful with the right therapist. But honestly, I have no idea how I was suddenly able to be very lucid about myself, like, the past few months, probably because I was finally not taking stilly high doses with medication I was thinking.

But I went on that kind of self-examination, individuation journey, which some people know it more as like shadow work, basically, and it's this, you know, Jungian concept of integrating the subconscious mind into the conscious mind so that the subconscious mind isn't acting without the awareness or control of the conscious mind, I. E. Incorporating things about yourself that you shoved away because you're ashamed of them into your conscious self in a way that can be controlled and regulated and arrest in a healthy way.

And therefore, you become whole instead of divided, and therefore, you become just kind of a better more healed person. And I I've been working on that for probably the past year. And then it finally started kinda really coming to ahead, like, a few months, like, a couple of months ago. And that's been probably even more helpful than the therapy that I had been to up been up and to that point, but I don't blame the therapist because the therapist can only work with what you give them. And I didn't even realize that what I was giving them was still a, you know, unaware version of myself. 

You know? And I think that that that probably happens a lot. People who wanna tell the story, but they don't wanna tell the story in a way that shows them that they did something wrong. You know what I mean or not, you know, or even that they might have been a certain way or they remember it this way or they don't wanna, you know, portray themselves a certain way. And so I think now being able to do that and not hate myself for it.

HAILEY: has been a lot has been really helpful. You know? And that's, you know, that's been yeah. That's definitely helped me a whole lot. And it's helped me with the stoicism about stuff too, you know. And with the anger.

ANNA: Yeah. That's I have also found it to be helpful, and you're very right. You do have to find the right style of therapy for yourself, the right kind of therapist for sure. And Haley, overall, you've given so much information today, so much insight, I think, so much help to people who live with bipolar and ADHD just like we do. And I wonder, where can my listeners find you? What kind of resources can they find with you?

HAILEY: Yeah. So I'm on Instagram @mind.over.mood. So it's mind over mode with period between the three words and the same on TikTok. It's @mind.over.mood. On TikTok, it's more of a, you know, vlog style thing where I just kind of speak a lot more. Not Instagram is gonna probably be a lot more, like, photos and, you know, text and stuff like that. But I do a bit of both on both.

ANNA: Wonderful. I will link both of those in the show notes to people can find you easily. And, Hailey, thank you so much for telling it like it is. I think your story needs to be heard by more people. I hope it brings awareness to what it's like to really live with bipolar ADHD and to be neurodivergent. So, thank you very much for being here today.

HAILEY: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

ANNA: A big thanks to all of you for tuning in today. I hope you learned something new about what it's to live with bipolar and ADHD. Please subscribe and leave a review to help other people find Courage to Heal. Next time, you will hear from Megan Raccipio who will share her experience living with bipolar type one. Until then, take care and stay courageous.