S1:E3 - Bipolar and Trauma

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ANNA: Welcome to courage to heal, a podcast where we explore the battles we wage within ourselves. I am your host, Anna Khandrueva, a psychotherapist and a mental health advocate. This is season one episode three, bipolar and trauma. Hello to all of you, and welcome to our conversation about how trauma affects bipolar disorder. I would like to begin by giving you a quick overview of this topic, starting with the definition of trauma.

We all experience stress at every age our daily lives are full of situations that frustrate or worry us. And most of the time, we have the support and skills we need to handle life challenges. But sometimes the stress we experience is so intense or goes on for so long that it overwhelms our ability to cope. This is how we become traumatized. Trauma is the impact felt from high levels of toxic stress.

Research has shown that trauma is associated with both mental health and chronic physical health conditions. Especially those traumatic events that occurred during childhood. Substance use, mental illness, and risky behaviors have been linked with traumatic experiences. And when it comes to bipolar, the statistics are staggering. People with bipolar are twice as likely to have multiple traumas in their lives as people who do not have this illness. 

Emotional abuse has the biggest impact by far followed by emotional neglect. People who were emotionally abused as children have higher severity of all bipolar symptoms from depression to anxiety to impulsivity. They have more depressive and mixed episodes experience more suicidality, have an earlier onset as early as thirteen years of age, and are more likely to cycle rapidly. Around sixty percent of people with bipolar experienced this kind of verbal or emotional abuse growing up. Up to thirty nine percent of people with bipolar are diagnosed with PTSD compared to about three and a half percent of the general population.

So, it's not surprising that I want to address this issue. It's so significant and yet it's rarely discussed. Let's shed more light on this connection.

ANNA: Today, we're talking with Isabella. This is not her real name. And Isabella graciously agreed to tell her story today of bipolar and trauma. So welcome to courage to heal Isabella. It's very nice to have you here.

ISABELLA: Hello. I'm happy to be here too.

ANNA: And, Isabela, I wonder if you can get started just by telling my listeners a little bit about yourself.

ISABELLA: Sure. I'm a forty-year-old woman. I offered since November now, but I was a dubbing comedian and a music teacher. I had two jobs and I have a little daughter who is ten years old.

ANNA: Wonderful. Thank you so much. And, Isabela, how did you first come to find out that you have bipolar disorder?

ISABELLA: Well, it was not, for me, it was not at one point realizing that I had bipolar disorder because my brother was diagnosed before me and my mother too. So to me, it was kind of like a familiar trait to behave weirdly. So, I knew something was wrong with me. But the real diagnosis was last year. It's because my symptoms were a little bit milder than my parents and my brother's symptoms. So, I always thought, no, I'm not like them. I'm fine. But turned out, I was bipolar two and they were bipolar one. So, yeah, I kind of neglected myself. But last year, I met the great psychiatrist, and he just made it clear for me. And, yeah, that's what happened. So, I was thirty-nine.

ANNA: Okay, yeah, it's not uncommon for people to live with those symptoms especially with type two because it does tend to be a bit milder. And not know, not realize that something might even be wrong. And since you're so recently diagnosed. I wonder how did you feel when you first found out?

ISABELLA: Well, I was relieved really because it finally all made sense. All my behavior, who I am, why I am like that. So, it was a relief. I'm gonna be honest. I had that psychiatrist ten years ago who kind of suggested might be bipolar, but my brother wasn't diagnosed yet, and I just refused to hear about that. I didn't want to be on meds. I didn't want my life to change. So, I kinda knew it in the back of my head, but wasn't really ready to receive that diagnosis.

ANNA: Right? I think a lot of people aren't ready at first because it is a very serious diagnosis. And yeah, it can be hard to accept that this is what I have.

ISABELLA: No, it's difficult, but at the same time, as I said before, for me, it was something familiar. I had to deal with a bipolar mom. I had to deal with a bipolar brother. So, to me, it was kind of natural or normal, or I thought everybody functioned like that before. So, At the same time, it was a relief, and at the same time, it was okay. Yes. I knew there was a problem with this family. So right. Okay.

ANNA: So, since you say it was relief. I wonder if you did have any fears or concerns when you found out.

ISABELLA: Oh, yes. My biggest fear was that I had passed it on my daughter.

ANNA: Right. Right. Because it is very easy to pass it on.

ISABELLA: Oh, yeah. And also, she's hypersensitive already. She's a very smart kid that that has very intense emotions. And so, I know that I was like that when I was when I was a kid and she has her lot of traumas enough already. My ex-husband just disappeared. He abandoned us, he abandoned her especially. So yeah, I'm really… I try my best to be the best mom ever. But with my condition and with, you know, the world around her, that's my biggest fear in life. Yeah. I just want her to be happy. 

ANNA: Of course. That's very understandable. I have a teenage son myself, and it's really hard to be to be able to tell with teenagers if it's just normal mood swings that they go through or if it might be first indications of bipolar. So, I have the very same fear that you do is what if I pass that on. Well, knowing what you know now about bipolar, what would you tell your old self back then?

ISABELLA: Well, I had my first symptoms appear when I was twenty-three. I had this giant panic attack. I didn't know what was happening to me. And I had another second panic attack in the same week, and then I had depression. That's how that's how it all started when I was around twenty-three, four months of horrible depression and anxiety all the time.

And I kinda neglected it and if I was to say something to myself at that time is get help right away, don't wait till it passes or don't be afraid to have something because You better you better be diagnosed and get treated than live in denial and make the things got worse. Because over time, I I've had bipolar for twenty years now. And over time, it only got worse. It only got worse. The depression cycles are longer. Hypomanic became the way I am when I'm not depressive. So, yeah, I'd say I would say to myself to get help right away, not white.

ANNA: I'm curious, do you have periods of stability in between hypomania and depression at all?

ISABELLA: I had three years of stability and that is why it's so confusing. It's started around my early twenties, and I was kind of okay from two thousand sixteen until two thousand nineteen. I was great. I was I was feeling alright. I was feeling that there was a gap between me and other people. I wasn't thinking too fast, and I wasn't getting all those depressions. But that was right after an EMDR therapy I had. So, I got better for three years. And all of a sudden, in two thousand nineteen, I had this the associative episode, what I just wouldn't recognize anything around me, wouldn't recognize myself in the mirror. Watching my hands and wondering whose hands are those.

And it all happened again, anxiety, depression, hypomania and such. So that was the normal the longest normal state I had. But, yeah, I have I wanna say normal days, but in that day, I'm going to have mood swings or also what I call my monthly mood swing. I have PMMD as well. So those three to five days before I have my period, I'm just suicidal. I just wanna end it. It's too hard and it's just unbearable. Also, I think that what might have delayed my diagnosis is that I was under birth control, and that significantly made my life better because I didn't have those ups and downs during my cycle. And when I stopped taking birth control after I had my daughter, I was twenty-nine… I was thirty, it only got worse. It got downhill from there to total mess. 

ANNA: Got it. Yeah. Us women would do have a harder time with rapid cycling, like you said, those daily swings. And then, of course, hormones really affect how bipolar shows up in women.

ISABELLA: Oh, yes. Like, for example, I had all my life I had acne even if I'm like my age. And since I started taking the SSRI, it all disappeared. And I tried every treatment before to make that acne disappear. But apparently, I had a very high level of cortisol that made my face just pop up with pimples all the time.

ANNA: Okay. So, it sounds like SSRIs were helpful at least in that regard. Were they helpful for you with bipolar symptoms too?

ISABELLA: I'm not gonna lie. It helps with getting me a little sedated. It's what I'm feeling at least. I'm a little less aggressive or easily triggered. I'm a let I'm a little more chill and it makes also, it makes it makes me numb during depression. I'm not as depressed as, but I'm not gonna say it cures at all, like, I don't know, paracetamol for a headache. It's not it's not as magical, but it sure helps. It it's Well, it has advantages and disadvantages. As an artist and musician, I know it kills my creativity. The music is gone from my life when I take those meds. So yeah. But at my age, I have suffered so much that I'm willing to give up that for just being a little less miserable.

ANNA: Oh, can I relate. Oh my gosh. I'm a writer and create definitely gets stalled when bipolar symptoms disappear. Our creativity is very much affected by that.

ISABELLA: Yep.

ANNA: And Isabella, you mentioned a dissociative episode. So, I kind of want to go back to that since this episode of the podcast is on bipolar and trauma, will you please share as much as you are comfortable about you are bringing in related trauma?

ISABELLA: Sure. During therapy, we spotted a major trauma in my childhood when I was six years old. My mom had she was pregnant, and she had two baby boys twins born prematurely and I'm not sure why my dad took me to see those babies No one was allowed to get in the room because they were premature in that heated box, you know? And he said, okay, what do you wanna call him? And the one was very pretty, and the other was all blue and weird. And I said, this one, I wanna call him what I called my brother because I had a little crush on someone who had that same name. And the other one, he said and the other one, I said, I don't want him. I don't want him. And he obviously died.

And all my life, I had that guilt of, oh my God, what if I had chosen him? I had that magical thought that my thinking my thoughts or my will have a consequent a consequence on in real life. On people. So, after that, it only got worse because my mom got severely depressed. They had taken my other brother to another country to get him treated. 

And my mom was just like furious at it. She lost she lost it really at that time. She became super aggressive, and she blamed me. She said it's because you had the flu and slept with me that night when you had the fever that the kids that your brother's got a disease and that's why I had them before term and that's why the other brother is dead. So, it was horrifying to me. 
It was all my fault, and there was nothing I could do about it. My mother was unhappy because of me. I killed one of my brothers. How could it be worse? I mean, life was just it it was absolute horror.

So, my mom kinda hated me for this. All my life so I didn't have the love and care in mother. She was everything was all about my brother. And when I was in therapy, I thought that was what triggered that bipolar thing. But then again, as I said, my brother has bipolar too, and he was the favorite kid. He was the love of her life. He was the surviving son. He was. So, I know it's related because of how I behaved later. I got into a messy marriage. I married a guy who only would mistreat me, who was a narcissist pervert. He abandoned me and the kid. He cheated on me while I was pregnant. It's like I was looking for trouble because I didn't know how to be loved. I didn't even know if I deserved to be loved. So, it did ruin my entire life. Those are the two major traumas in my life.

ANNA: Oh, yeah. That certainly sounds really, really terrible to go through that as a young child and then to go through more trauma as an adult. And you kind of said that what we don't know if any of this triggered the illness because it's clearly genetic in this case. But do you believe that all of this drama made your symptoms worse?

ISABELLA: Yes. Yes, definitely. And the fact of not having an environment where I was loved and understood and where I could just at least exist as a person, you know, My mother's, she would just shut me off every time I tried to do something by myself or try to she was never happy with my work. She was never happy with who I was. All two dollars criticized. 
You look. So, of course, it wasn't helping. I was crushed in my own personality. Fortunately, I had a loving dad, but he was a little bit too much. And my dad has always lived in denial to to him with itself fantasies. None of this is happening. It's his way from protect for protecting himself, I guess. But it's not helping to live with someone who destroys you and someone who doesn't acknowledge to drawing. So

ANNA: Oh, sure.

ISABELLA: Yeah.

ANNA: You can only imagine that. And since you mentioned that kind of denial on your dad's behalf. I wonder if you also encountered some stigma in your life and if that caused any shame around having bipolar.

ISABELLA: Of course, all the time, every time I have an episode, either hypomanic or depressive my friends are like, why don't you why you don't wanna get out with us? You said you were coming, and I'm not coming, and I don't feel like telling them listen. It's either I'm gonna throw my help out a window or I'm gonna bark at someone just make them feel horrible for who they are, for a yell at people or something. So, I'm not fine. And people who do not have mental illness issues, they don't understand. They're like, just make an effort. Just you know, it's your best friend's birthday. You have to show up. Yeah, but I can't. Or I'm afraid to show up and be a mess and just ruin everything.

So also at work, at as I told you, I'm off work since November, and I have this huge guilt. Well, for the dubbing industry, it's alright because I had finished all my projects for dubbing, and it's only TV, so who cares? But for my other job, the teaching job oh my god. I feel so guilty. The kids text me all day. When are you a common teacher? When are you coming back? And I feel so horrible. I feel like I let them down. And even if it's not my favorite job in the world, I feel horrible for not being able to function as others do.

ANNA: Yeah. I can certainly, certainly understand that. I myself have had to go on medical leaves from work. That's something I told my listeners in my very first episode, and that was so incredibly shameful to know or to at least feel as if I'm letting people down and to feel like there's something wrong with me. Why can't I just work?

ISABELLA: Exactly. Exactly.

ANNA: It's tough. It's very tough. And you also mentioned this, you know, adulthood trauma too. Because there is we do find in research that there's a bit of a difference between childhood trauma and adulthood trauma. So, as you were dealing with your husband traumatizing you, I wonder if you noticed your symptoms getting worse right around that time.

ISABELLA: Yes, especially that I had postpartum depression too, and that he wouldn't Yeah. He just didn't care. He was partying with his friends. He was a real narcissist. Like, he was so selfish to me. It was alienating because I was like, how could you? How I mean, even I need your help I need you here and you're not here and you're only making things worse. And one day, we ended up at the police. Station because I didn't wanna let him in, and he broke in through the kitchen door. I mean, it was all drama all the time.

And he just didn't understand. He life was about him and life was beautiful and it was his thing and we he was the main character and we were just gravitating and around him. And I didn't get the help I needed, so it obviously triggered a lot of depression. When I had my daughter, I had that day, when I was bathing her, and to me, it was so simple. I just had to drown her and slip my wrists and that was it, that was over because nothing was worth it anymore. 

And that's when I reached out for help because I scared it's I scared myself. Like, five minutes later, I started crying. I'm like, no, I'm not that person. What am I doing? I'm Are you crazy? 
Like, she's the best thing that ever happened to me. Why would I wanna do that? And so Yes. It only made things worse. But it also helped me reach out for help, as I said, and that's when I did that EMDR thing. 

And it helped me because as much as I thought that man was toxic, I thought I needed him because he had that confidence and all that I he was everything that I wasn't. He was extroverted confident. Everyone liked him. New success full. He was a surfer. 
I mean, he was all the things that people usually like. And so, I was like, nothing is going to be possible without him. And I didn't wanna deprive my daughter of a father too. So, it was really difficult for me to move on. So, I had that EMBR therapy We're a great therapist. 
So yes, there are negative points, but also positive points.

ANNA: And you mentioned the EMDR therapy, so I just want to tell my listeners a little bit more about that that EMDR was developed specifically for trauma. And over time, research started showing that it's effective for other things too, like anxiety, depression, phobias, even eating disorders. All of things. But the primary point of EMR is to treat trauma. And it sounds like that's why you saw it out is because of trauma, not because of bipolar symptoms.

ISABELLA: Exactly, exactly. And, you know, with these kind of disorders, there is not one magical recipe that works for everyone. I mean, the EMDR worked for me, didn't work for my brother. He hated it. Some other stuff worked for him that didn't work for me at all. Like, he did some kind of rebirth ritual that I felt super weird. I'm not into that kind of stuff. He is. He's very spiritual, but I'm clearly not. So, it to me, it was not appealing. It was, like, why would I do something like that? It's charlatan's old. So, yeah, EMDR really helped me, I can say, for sure. Now, I'm not sure it works for everyone just like the other, just like the meds, just like other therapies?

ANNA: I actually just read a research study the other that showed that for those people who are traumatized and have bipolar, EMDR helped and it was confirmed with MRI scans of their brains, but then it's kind of unclear whether EMDR can help people with bipolar who don't have trauma. So, it seems to be that EMR helps the trauma symptoms. And related to that, bipolar symptoms also diminish. So, did you notice that that when you were doing the EMDR for trauma, your bipolar symptoms also got better?

ISABELLA: Oh, they were gone. That's what I said before. They were gone for three years. Three years I was fine. I had the best time of my life those three years. I had a band. We were touring. I was playing music. I had quit that stupid teaching job that I hated so much, and I was just being myself. I was doing shows on TV for dubbing.

I was I was free of pain and anxiety, and I was just living my life. My daughter was growing up all healthy and fine and I was meeting people. I had a few relationships that didn't work out so much, but it didn't destroy me to just to leave those people. For example, I was doing just fine. Until that day, in two thousand nineteen, when it all came back and hit me like a train. 
You know? I'm not I'm not sure why. Because there was nothing new nothing had changed dramatically in my life. I was in a pretty serious relationship too. I had support.

Well, maybe I was drinking a little bit heavily at this time because that's how I self-medicated myself before treatment. I used to drink every day. And depending on if I was depressed or hypomanic, I would regulate the dosage of if I was gonna drink the whole bottle or just a few glasses. So my psychotherapy, psychos, psychos psychiatric said that it was probably the alcohol on the long run. That made it all come back.

ANNA: That makes sense. Certainly, substance misuse, especially alcohol. First of all, it's really common in bipolar or just like you said, it's self-medication. And then we do find that it can be a big trigger. I can once again relate to that because I was also drinking too much. 

ISABELLA: And I do wonder going back, like, if I didn't do that, would things be better? You know, did I screw it all up? It feels so great though. It's the best anti-anxiety thing that that ever happened today. I mean, in the on the short run, it works so good. But then, you know, it ruins your life, your liver, your brain, on the long run, it only makes it worse. 
So

ANNA: Absolutely. So, Isabella, what are some of your biggest challenges now?

ISABELLA: To get back to work for one and to get a life that is more suitable for me. I'm trying to leave the city right now. I'm selling my apartment. I'm trying to find something a a quieter place maybe near the ocean or a little bit, you know, close to nature. And I'm trying to slow down my working rate, because as I told you, when I was capable of, you know, I had three jobs at some point and it was just crazy, but it was also a way to get away from all my problems because if I was busy, I wasn't thinking about how miserable I was feeling. 

So now I just I'm burned out totally. I don't have the strength to do this anymore. So, I'm trying to figure out what lifestyle could be, you know, because you gotta eat. So what I what I can do that is not that is not gonna damage my mental health, but also bring a little bit of money.

ANNA: Once again, going back to research, we do see that in people with bipolar, there's huge issues with employment because of the ups and downs. It's really hard to maintain stable employment.

ISABELLA: Yes, it's true me. I found I found my way through arts because you have flexible hours. And you can more or less choose if you wanna go or don't wanna go on that day, especially that they know that artists are into substance abuse and everything. So if you call them more and say, I'm not coming, they kind of understand, you know, but not with the teaching job. And I think that's what most it's the highest pressure for me because I can't just call in sick and say, I can't come. Why? Because the vibe is off, because today is not a good day, you know. It's not a real reason not to show up at work.

ANNA: And, Isabella, we're talking about all kinds of negatives that come with bipolar. So, I wonder, do you believe that there are any strengths or positives about having this illness? Oh,

ISABELLA: yeah. Definitely. Especially the creativity part. When I'm hypomanic, I'm on the top of the world. I feel great. I feel I don't think normal people do feel like that Not if they're not on drugs or something. Because when I talk to people around me, they're like, oh, yeah. That's like when you're high on cocaine. And I don't know. I'm just telling you, I feel like I'm great and I'm greater than great.

And so that helped me a lot with songwriting, music composing, lyrics, and everything. And I don't think I would have come up with a work that is so deep and condensed in time because I wouldn't sleep for days and keep on writing and it just came it it's like it didn't come from me. It just came through me. Like, I would just hear the music in my head or write lyrics down as somewhat as if someone was dictating them to me. So, it's a weird feeling. It's like a superpower.

ANNA: Absolutely. I can feel like that. Like I mentioned, I'm a writer. And when I was hypomanic, I wrote a huge novel I could just sit there and write for hours. And like you said, it kinda comes through you. It's like the stream of creative consciousness. And unfortunately, when I became stable, now it's a huge chore and I just don't wanna do it.

ISABELLA: Yeah. Well, yeah, usually, what I do is just put it aside and wait until the next time it all kicks in.

ANNA: Right? Then that brings us back to how healthy is it, if we want to become stable, but then we know that we would lose that creative vulnerability that for you has to do with making money and making a living.

ISABELLA: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But The worst part was I think the sedating thing of with the meds like I feel so numb and not be able to express my feelings as I used to. But at the same time, I I find inner peace in that because there's no need to be all that emotional all the time. 
You know, it's tiring really because, yeah, one of the I always say there are two things that are really horrible with this condition is the fact that you are scared all the time. I'm anxious all the time. And I'm tired all the time. Even when I'm like, I don't have very long episodes of hypomania, but three, four days, and then I have to sleep for two weeks because it was too much. And yeah. I'm not sure what the what the initial question was. I just went off on a tangent.

ANNA: This is wonderful because you're giving my listeners such a great overview of what it's like to truly have bipolar and to have those dilemmas of “Do I do what I need to do to be stable? Do I remain with these swings and keep that creativity, keep that fire burning?”

ISABELLA: Oh, that that was my first choice always until I until I burned it all. Like, it was this yeah. I told you last November when I just decided, okay, that's enough. I've had enough. I cannot keep on going like this. But even if I knew before that something was wrong with me, I was never willing to give up my creative to for treatment. Never. I thought I was doing I was doing just fine and I would I would survive and I would, you know, like a Phoenix or I like to compare it to Persephone. You know, the Hade's wife she hides a little bit in hell and then comes back and it's spring and everything is fine again. But this year, it was too hard on me so enough. Maybe I'll change my mind. You know, maybe in two months, you call me, I'm going to be off bed I don't know where on the trip somewhere. I don't know. But for at the moment, I can tell you that I wanna take this seriously and take my mask.

ANNA: What do you wish that people who don't have bipolar understood about those of us who do have it?

ISABELLA: Yeah. I want them to know that whatever understanding or they can be understanding all they want they can never really know what it feels like. And they get bothered at a certain point. Like, even if they're understanding and they're here for you, at some point, their attitude is gonna be, okay, fine. Just stop it now. As if as if I was acting but I'm not acting. If I'm acting is more to hide symptoms than to overplay symptoms, so when you see me that I'm acting weird or that it doesn't seem real, it's not because I'm hiding behind the character. It's because I'm hiding symptoms not to feel that crazy to you.

So, I want them to know that they will never know what it is. And so some of my friends are very understanding my family too, their supportive. But there's always that I I always feel like I'm like they're watching me. Oh, maybe she's gonna snap. You know? And that's they're they never treat you as if you were normal. There's always a little hesitating pattern of is he herself or not. So, yeah, don't do that people who don't have bipolar, please.

ANNA: Oh, I couldn't agree more with that. I mean, ultimately, that's the stigma. Right? As people think that we're “crazy.”

ISABELLA: Yeah. And that we can I mean, I never snap? Like, they think you're just gonna move to change your face and just become an act crazy. No. I have I have things that will trigger hypomanic behavior.

Even if I'm not in an episode, like, it's I'm going to behave agitated. Maybe if someone tells me something I don't agree with or that's something that gets on my nerves really, like racism for me. It's not it's not supposed to be a thing. So, when someone starts an argument with this kind of subject, it just makes me mad. And I can just, like, stream at the person and I know it's myself. 
I mean, I'm defending right ideas, but to other people around me like my friends like just chill, you know, you're destroying this person. You're being too much, and I don't see it on the on the moment, on the spot. Then I realized maybe I was too hard on that person. But again, I don't snap into madness like I'm not going to be here with you talking normally and then just walk and throw myself out of the window. This is not how it works.

ANNA: Right. And you mentioned medication several times. What are some other coping strategies if there are any do you use in the present moment?

ISABELLA: At the moment, none, but I feel like I should go back therapy because it's been four years now, and it feels like I need to talk someone because life changes and you change and you need new guidance or maybe advice maybe just someone to listen to you that doesn't judge you or tries to give you instant solutions, like, why don't you just go for a run? No. I'm not going for run. not gonna help with anything.

ANNA: And that advice is quite common. People will tell us, just go exercise, just do yoga, just get some sunshine, just drink lots of water, and they don't understand that. We quite literally have different brains and stuff like that. Sure, it might help, but it's so hard to do and it's not going to cure bipolar. Exactly. So, as we wind down here, is there anything that you would like my listeners to know about bipolar that you haven't yet talked about?

ISABELLA: I'm not sure. I think we covered it all. All I want to tell them is that maybe reach out for help as much as you can. Don't hide. It's not shameful. I know you can't feel like that at times, but the more you talk about it, and the more you are okay, you're at peace with it, with yourself, you're gonna get better and you get better in relationships with people. And, yeah, don't hesitate to reach out for help. Don't hide.

ANNA: Great. Thank you for that advice. And, Isabella, I just want to thank you so much for sharing your story today. I know it's a difficult story. And opening up about that, of course, is difficult too. And I'm a firm believer, the more awareness we spread about this illness the more open we are, the more help other people are going to get. And like you said, that's really important.

ISABELLA: Yes. Exactly. And thank you, Anna, for this podcast and everything you do to raise awareness; it’s very important. The more we do that, the more hopefully people will understand. Thank you so much.

ANNA: And as we work together, all of us, all of us who have bipolar, I do believe that we can fight that stick and hopefully make everything better. So, thank you once again.

Thank you to all my listeners for listening today. I hope Isabella's story shed some light on the challenges traumatized people face when also dealing with bipolar symptoms. Thank you for listening and helping me spread awareness about all things mental health. Please subscribe and leave a review to help other people find Courage to Heal.

For our next episode, stay tuned for an interview with Michelle Reittinger who will share her story of being a mother with bipolar and her amazing journey to recovery. Until then, take care and stay courageous.